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Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, discusses Covid vaccine efficacy & bioethics


July 8, 2021: This Epoch Times interview with Dr. Robert Malone is an absolutely essential interview to watch and share. American Thought Leader host Jan Jekielek covers all questions relating to mRNA technology, Covid vaccine efficacy, and many of the bioethical issues emerging out of rushed and excessive public health policy measures.


To watch the full Epoch Times video, you will be asked to provide your email address (no catch, this is a free video). The full script from the Epoch Times interview is offered immediately below the video link for your reference.



Video Link: American Thought Leader's Jan Jekielek hosts Dr. Robert Malone



Full Dr. Malone Preamble & Interview Script


Dr. Robert Malone, mRNA Vaccine Inventor, on the Bioethics of Experimental Vaccines and the ‘Ultimate Gaslighting’


“What would happen to the entire vaccine enterprise - I’m talking about pediatric vaccines, the fundamental bedrocks of public health - if we basically validate the criticisms of those that have been labeled anti-vaxxers?”


In this episode, we sit down with mRNA vaccine pioneer Dr. Robert Malone to discuss questions surrounding the COVID-19 vaccines and repurposed drugs, as well as the bioethics of experimental vaccines.


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[Below is a rush transcript of this American Thought Leaders episode from July 6, 2021. This transcript may not be in its final form and may be updated.]


Jan Jekielek: Dr. Robert Malone, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders.


Dr. Robert Malone: Likewise, thank you.


Mr. Jekielek: You’re, of course, an outbreak specialist, you’re the inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, and you’re also a biostatistician, which is an interesting collection of-


Dr. Malone: Well, I would say that I’ve been trained in some biostatistics. That’s to be a biostatistician for me. That’s a step above where I’m at, but I do epidemiology and biostats, among other things.


Mr. Jekielek: Well, so I really want to touch on this whole kind of censorship question, but before we do that, let’s talk about where do you stand right now when it comes to treatment for COVID-19 or vaccination for COVID-19, given everything we know as we speak and given your rather unique background.


Dr. Malone: Okay. So that’s a good tee-up because you’re talking about both treatment and vaccines, and I’ve actually been primarily focused with the team that I’ve been working with on repurposing drugs for COVID. And we’re trying to launch three clinical trials right now, one India and two in the States, under IND (Investigational New Drug) for a drug combination involving anti-inflammatories that we’ve developed. And it’s already been tested and was initially discovered in a small hospital in Beloit, Wisconsin.


I made an initial threat assessment in January, as we were discussing. Well, I got a signal at Wuhan and decided that I didn’t think that the time needed was available to develop new vaccines and get them safety tested in a timely fashion to mitigate the risks of the pandemic. So even though I’m a vaccine specialist, I also have started a company in the past, focusing on drug repurposing for Zika [virus], and so I have this background, and so I’ve seen both sides of what’s going on and how it’s rolled out.


My take on the vaccines is that we have some new technologies in the mRNA vaccines. We have a fairly well-established genetic vaccine technology, so related to RNA, but using the gene therapy vector called recombinant adenovirus, we have two examples of those right now. People call them the AstraZeneca and the J&J. AstraZeneca-Oxford is that cluster that’s not licensed in the United States. So we’re right now in the States, we have patients, and everybody has access to three genetic vaccines.


There is a more traditional vaccine that’s about to, I think, gain emergency use authorization from Novavax. That’s also showed greater than 90% protection against disease and death. So that’s in line with what the genetic vaccines are showing.


And I think that that one offers options for those that are uncomfortable with the genetic vaccine strategy. And I know a lot of people that have been contacting me are interested in having an option, they’re uncomfortable with the genetic vaccines, and they’re interested in having an alternative that they can use. I think that Novavax could be a suitable alternative for them.


Now, worldwide, there’s a number of more traditional vaccines, inactivated virus, vaccines, and many that are coming online that involve purified subunits, often at very low cost with more traditional antigens. We have the vaccines coming from the Soviet Union and also from China. Those are more traditional and have lower efficacy. Efficacy being these endpoints of death or disease in a structured clinical trial.


So for the vaccines, there are more options worldwide. In the States, the options are currently restricted to the genetic ones. Many people that are uncomfortable with those for various reasons might be more comfortable with the Novavax product. I have no financial ties to Novavax, just to say the conflict of interest, I’m just expressing what I perceive as the vaccine landscape.


In terms of therapeutics, I sit on the ACTIV committee at NIH, which is the Foundation for NIH committee. I’m not a voting member. I’m an observer. This is the committee that is managing these inpatient and outpatient trials for new agents and now repurposed agents. So they’ve just opened ACTIV-6, which is the first ivermectin trial that’s federally sponsored to the best of my knowledge here in the States. And it’s an outpatient virtual trial structure.


With our group from the DoD (Department of Defense), we attempted to include an ivermectin included arm in the trial that we have pending with the agency as an IND right now, but the FDA raised so many objections and asked us to do some fundamental studies about demonstrating the mechanism of action of ivermectin that the Department of Defense decided that it just wasn’t worth the delay in time to get the trial started. And so they dropped the ivermectin arm.


So the landscape right now for the therapeutics and prophylactic drugs looks like… I’m going to stick my neck out, but I’m in close contact with Andrew Hill, who’s doing the meta-analysis; I’ve seen the work of Tess Lawrie, who’s now published another meta-analysis from worldwide ivermectin data.


I think the data keeps getting stronger and stronger in favor of ivermectin as having some protective activity within a safe dosing range. And that seems to be impacting in various emerging economies that don’t have access to vaccines and is impacting on event rate for severe COVID disease and death.


So there’s some great kind of epidemiologic studies or data coming out of India where Indian States had been on ivermectin. The incidents of attack rate of disease was low. Then they withdrew it for political reasons. There was a change in regime. It went up. Then they reimplemented it. It went back down again. So that’s pretty strong evidence.


There is also reasonable evidence for the use of ivermectin as a therapeutic, but there are many others. And it’s just the one that has gotten a lot of press, in part because of Pierre Kory, Senate testimony.


And so ivermectin, even a whole host of anti-inflammatories, because what folks often don’t understand about COVID is that we have the SARS-CoV-2 virus infection event. And typically, that leads to a disease of varying severity at something in the range of four to seven or eight days afterwards. But that disease only happens in a subset of patients, maybe 80%, maybe 50% of patients taken across all age groups, maybe even less. And the disease is the hyperinflammatory response to the virus.


So the disease is really our reaction to the virus. The good news is with drugs is that we have this rich library of anti-inflammatory drugs that appear to be quite useful against keeping people out of the hospital if it’s used early enough or treating them once they’re in the hospital.


The antiviral that’s been licensed, remdesivir, in the United States, the WHO is not recommending remdesivir globally, and many physicians in the United States find remdesivir to be of limited use in special situations.


So the idea of antivirals for this is really not panning out. And there are multiple other antivirals that have been tested. This is often the case with respiratory viruses.


So we all know about Tamiflu and influenza. Tamiflu, in theory, should be good. And it may be, it has an impact, but you have to take it within 24 to 48 hours of first getting influenza. And during that period, often you don’t know that you have influenza. So it’s a little bit of a catch-22. Likewise, remdesivir it appears.


The other agent that has gotten a lot of attention is dexamethasone that comes out of the recovery trial in Oxford. And that trial actually shows that the utility of dexamethasone is very limited. Now, here in the States, a lot of docs have kind of gone all in, and you may even recall the president when he was infected with even before, he wasn’t that severe, and yet they put him on dexamethasone.


Now the actual indication of dexamethasone based on the recovery trial, you should already be on oxygen and high flow oxygen or even intubated. So it appears that in the States, dexamethasone is being overused. This is often the case when dexamethasone is often kind of a first-line go-to when you have a new inflammatory disease.


Then, over time, additional agents come in that are more specific, and dexamethasone drop. Problem with dex is it’s super non-specific, and it hammers the lymphocytes. It hammers a lot of the cell populations that you actually need to recover from COVID long-term. So cynics might say that dex is a great way to get patients out of the hospital over the short term, but whether or not it’s actually helping them over the long-term, that’s actually never been studied. So that’s the landscape as I see it.


The RNA vaccines obviously have gotten a lot of attention. They’re remarkable. The adenovirus vectored vaccines probably produce more protein over a longer period of time. They came out fairly early and were identified as associated with coagulation problems. Those coagulation problems are now being seen more with the RNA vaccines.


And there’s an odd spectrum of symptoms, and the governments across the world have largely denied that there are any safety concerns with the RNA vaccines. That’s now not so tenable.


We had the CDC come out last week, talking about the pericarditis and other cardiomyopathies that are showing up in the pediatric population. So this is up to the age of 18. And that is a significant safety risk. That was only recently identified about two months ago. It’s taken two months for the CDC to verify it.


And there appear to be a number of other adverse events that are buried within the admittedly flawed databases that we have, that we’re mining data mining, to identify adverse events that are associated with the RNA vaccines. These include thrombocytopenia. Also, so this is low blood platelets, and that can be associated with bleeding or other problems.


Clearly, there is a signal relating to blood clotting abnormalities, again, as with adenovirus vectored vaccines. There is cerebral venous thrombosis. That’s a big fancy word, but what it means is blood clots in the veins draining your brain. So you can imagine that that’s not a very good thing to have. It’s kind of related to stroke.


And I think that there’s a good chance that we’re having some of these cardiac symptoms exist in older age cohorts, but they are subject to what’s called masking, which is this problem when you’re looking at databases of epidemiology or whatever, if you have a confounding variable, like for instance, certainly, I am in an age cohort where cardiac events are not rare. And the problem is if you have a relatively rare event associated with a drug or a vaccine, and it’s in a cohort, an age population that has a high background for related things, it’s really hard to pick out the stuff that’s coming from the new drug, as opposed to the background levels that’s masking.


So I think that it may turn out over time that that cardiac signal that we’re seeing in the adolescent population, we can pick it out because they have such a low background level. So there’s very little noise. It’s easy to see the signal.


In older age groups where there’s more noise, it’s harder to find the signal, but a lot of cardiologists and others are reporting things that are making people uncomfortable.


So with the RNA vaccines, it is remarkable, the level of activity, the technology has enormous potential, but there’s these events. And it’s a little odd. Physicians are starting to talk about the overlap between long COVID, this is these chronic symptoms that come after you get the acute infection. And by the way, you don’t necessarily have to have the severe disease to get long COVID.


Because these longer term adverse events and sickness problems that you can get after you get the disease, there seems to be overlap between those symptoms, that profile of symptoms, the disease-associated symptoms, and the vaccine-associated symptoms.


So long COVID, COVID, and some of these vaccine adverse events seem to have some overlap. And there are physicians that are claiming that they can actually do laboratory tests and show that they’re having similar profiles in terms of laboratory abnormalities with these genetic vaccine, genetic COVID vaccine-related syndromes, and long COVID.


So there’s things going on there with the vaccines. The problem is we don’t know how severe they are in general. What is the bell curve distribution for severity? And what’s the incidence? And often the question is asked, why don’t we? And the answer is because the FDA elected during this phase of emergency use authorization to not require that the drug manufacturers rigorously capture adverse events and efficacy signals.


So we end up relying on really outdated antiquated systems that have been set up a decade or more ago for the most part or some systems that are self-reported like V-safe at the CDC, but those capture 1% typically of the events because they’re all self-reported.


And because they’re self-reported, there are problems in interpreting those data because someone might say, “Well, aunt Mary died two days after vaccination, and we’re going to report this.” And this is one of the big controversies is there’s a large number of deaths reported, but they’re not verified as being vaccine-related. And so there’s a real arm wrestling going on about what do those mean both in the US and Europe.</